timing adjustment question, save my motor!

D15, D16, D17 and Mini-Me swaps
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timing adjustment question, save my motor!

By Steven e
- Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:38 am #338184 Hi: I'm new here. I've used the forum for information to do my first head gasket job and it's been really helpful. The car is 92 civic hatch D15B8 about 130,000. Everything is put back together, but I have one issue I want to check in on before I crank it over. I had trouble locating the timing belt tension adjust bolt that is right above the crank pully, (because I'm lame), so I just slipped the belt off as it wasn't that tight. I marked the belt and the cam gear first, so I would make sure to put them back right. I couldn't get the belt back on. Then I located the bolt, right where it's supposed to be under the little black cover. I loosened that. Then I put the crank pully and the cam gear both to the timing marks provided (white mark lined up on the crank shaft and lower line on the cam gear lined up with the little plastic pointer on the inner timing cover) and put the belt back on. I then followed the instructions in the manual I have for retensioning the belt, which is 1/4 turn counter clockwise (3 teeth on the cam gear) and re-tightened the tension adjustment locking bolt.

Question. Now the lower white timing mark is not lined up, when the cam gear is at TDC. It's about one inch or so to the left of the reference marks. That doesn't seem right. The only thing I can figure I might have done wrong is that I didn't loosen the crankshaft pully at any point. The belt also seems fairly loose, but I have no idea how tight it is supposed to be. So, what's up? did I screw up, or is this normal? The manual seemed pretty clear that this is the procedure, but the whole procedure was timing belt replacement with full removal of the crank pully etc... Sorry, I'm a newb. I'm reasonably mechanically inclined, but there is no substitute for experience. Any help appreciated, so I don't bend any valves. :? TIA

By Steven e
- Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:48 pm #338199 Thanks Teal. That's kind of what I'm thinking this morning having slept on it, is try again and see if I can't logic it out somehow. Clearly the crank pulley moved relatively more than the cam gear. maybe the belt wasn't engaged all the way, or I need to provide tension on the belt somewhere while I turn the crank pulley. I just followed the directions as best I could. They are pretty simple so it doesn't seem unlikely that some small important detail is missing. I have the chiltons honda manual. Like I said, I didn't loosen the crank pulley and the last step is to re-tighten the crank pulley loosening bolt (not sure that's exactly what it's called). But I'm assuming that the crank pulley only goes on one way even if the crank pulley loosening bolt was loose, the pulley would still be in the same position when replaced after removal. I think they are just reminding me to tighten it after the procedure is finished.

I didn't ever check the timing mark on the crank pulley before I took the belt off. I just put the cam gear to UP, so I don't know what it was at, but isn't it true that the crank pulley should always be on the white alignment mark with the cam gear is on it's alignment mark, no matter what? I mean aligned is aligned right? I really like this car, so I'm doing my best to get it running again. I'm pretty sold on the 90's civic hatchbacks! It only died because of a cooling issue. I'll figure that out if I can get it running again.

By Steven e
- Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:02 pm #338202 thanks for the heads up on that. I did check that, but there is a small mark on the bottom of the inner timing cover with that aligns with a third, lower mark on the cam gear. I aligned that, which put the upper alignment marks tilted a little forward as you said. Actually, when I took the timing belt off, I put the letters UP, just up and didn't pay any heed to the other marks. So, I figure I'm starting from scratch as if replacing the timing belt.

By Steven e
- Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:42 pm #338209 I messed around for a while, did some more internet research, re-read the manuals. Still the same issue. When I go to tension the belt by turning the crank pulley, there is a certain amount of slack that has to be taken up in the belt before the cam gear begins to turn. That puts the lower timing mark about an inch to the left of where it started. One thread somewhere indicated that you can push on the tensioner to take up slack in the belt before turning the crank, but I can't reach the tensioner pulley without tearing down stuff to get the timing cover and crank pulley off. I tried various ways to tension the belt before turning the crank, but no dice.

It seems like there are probably various possibilities. One is just that it's okay for the mark to be off that much after the timing belt is tensioned. Of course I'm tempted to start it and see how it runs and what the timing is like, but I have no idea if this amount of "offness" of the lower timing mark is enough to cause damage if I crank it over. I'm willing to bet that if I put the crank pulley an inch to the right before putting the belt on, I could get it to end up in the right spot after tensioning. I'm not actually sure that it's possible to even get the belt off by one tooth if I start with the marks on both top and bottom aligned. If I did though, is one tooth off going to cause engine damage, or can I turn it over and see what's up? Hmmm... what to do?
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By suspendedHatch
- Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:57 pm #338210 No, it should be dead on.

How are you putting the belt on the crank sprocket with the pulley in the way? How are you taking off the lower timing cover at all?

Do you have the right belt for the engine?

When you put the belt on, it should be completely tight between the left side of the crank sprocket and the left side of the cam pulley. Any slack you push to the right where the belt goes around the water pump, the tensioner, and back to the crank sprocket. Even with the tensioner loose, it should be hard to get the belt to slip over it. You can just barely get the belt over the tensioner, then torque the tensioner to spec.

Rotate the engine counterclockwise by hand for a few revolutions and recheck the timing. It should be dead on.

By Steven e
- Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:10 pm #338217 Thanks suspended. To be clear, the lower cover is not off. I did the head gasket and am just trying to put everything back together. The belt is not being replaced, and it looks pretty clean and unworn. So, I have not removed the lower cover, crank pulley etc.. at all. I just slipped the belt off and am slipping it back on. In order to get it on, I have to pull upward on the right side of the belt, which pushes the tensioner back leaving me enough slack to get the belt on. Unfortunately, it also tends to turn the crank pulley I have probably taken the belt on and off 10 times. So, it sounds like the bottom line is, if there is tension on the left side of the timing belt, the marks on both pulley and gear should be dead on. Not 1 inch off, not 3/8 inch off, right? I have got it on now to where when the cam gear is TDC, the crank pulley is off by 3/8 inch. given the gear to cam pulley ratio, maybe that means I'm still a tooth off. I'll give it another 10 tries! I think you've got me on the right track. Probably just a matter of tweaking it this way and that to end up dead on with tension on the left side of the belt. If I could really lock the crank pulley in place firmly while I put the belt on, I think that would help. I'll look at that possibility too.

By Steven e
- Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:23 pm #338218 Ok, another 10 timing belt installation attempts and here is where I'm at. The closest I can get with the tension adjusted is that when the crank pulley is dead on, the cam gear is about 1/8" inch off. Or reversed, the crank pulley is 3/8" off if the cam gear is aligned. Moving the belt a single tooth on the cam gear while maintaining tension on the left side, makes it further off. It does show that I was off one tooth in the beginning of this thread though. Don't know where to go from here except to try starting it. Assuming the crank gear and pulley are installed in a fixed position that's as close as I can get without a different belt. Is there any allowance for belt stretch or being slightly out of tolerance? Maybe I need a new belt. Or is it at all possible for the cam to be off?
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By teal_dx
- Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:30 am #338225 You're correct, Cam and crank gears only go on one way. Not sure what's happening there... a belt doesn't stretch that much.
Did you try turning it by hand to see how it goes? I'd do that before starting it.

By Steven e
- Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:25 am #338232 I have turned it around a couple times, but I'm not sure what I'd be looking for. Presumably interference of valves and pistons? Thanks. I'm still hesitant to turn it over, but I'll probably do it in the morning. Nothing new has occurred to me. And thanks for your head gasket post Teal. That was really helpful.
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By brandoff88
- Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:38 pm #338249 :? if you have it off might as well change the belt, just in case, if you jump time after all this work, that would be shitty..

By Steven e
- Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:46 pm #338252 Yes, it would be. but, I don't have the crank pulley removal tool. I also need my car back as I'm on borrowed cars and my pickup is also in the shop all week. The timing belt is a whole other can of worms to tackle. To add to it all, I don't know if the head gasket job is really going to fix my car, so I sort of want to find out before I invest any more time/money/brain cells. As far as I can figure, the radiator ran completely dry, and it over heated pretty bad. So who knows what might have happened in there. It did run before I did the head gasket, and ran great otherwise, so hoping for the best and assuming the timing belt is still good etc... I'll find out soon enough here....

By Steven e
- Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:51 pm #338768 Just a quick update. I went ahead and started with the timing marks slightly off as they were. It seems to run pretty good, but occasionally idling a little rough. My timing light is toast, so have to either fix it or take it in. I might just take it in for a general engine check up to make sure it's running Ok. Also flushed the coolant. Not positive I got all the air out... Thanks for the input everyone.
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